Occupy Philadelphia: a cognitive dissonance.

From The Philadelphia Inquirer:

No immediate plans to remove Occupy Philly, city says¹


By Miriam Hill, Allison Steele, and Sam Wood, Philadelphia Inquirer Staff Writers

On a day that saw New York City clear hundreds of Occupy Wall Street protesters from a downtown park, Philadelphia officials again said they had no immediate plans for such evictions.

“We’re looking at all our options,” Philadelphia managing director Richard Negrin said. “We are watching and learning from other cities.”

Mark McDonald, a spokesman for Mayor Nutter, said Philadelphia still wanted to negotiate and would not move to throw protesters out Tuesday night or Wednesday morning.

Chris Goldstein, nominal spokesman for the Occupy Philly protesters, said he did not expect police to move in.

“They’ve said they don’t want to be like Oakland and New York,” Goldstein said.

The city has been careful to avoid ultimatums and direct confrontations, he added.

Much more at the link.

The article continues to note that the city, as other cities across the nation have been, is concerned about normal issues such as safety, sanitation and security around the Occupy sites. The First Amendment states that “Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” The article says that there is a balancing act allowed when the government must have solid, politically neutral reasons for restricting such a protest, reasons such as public safety and health regulations. That the First Amendment protests the right of the people to assemble “peaceably” might well be an issue given that the Occup Philadelphia protest has seen reported rapes and, just last night, an (alleged) assault by a 47-year-old homeless protester, David Anderson, who was arrested for slapping and punching a 45-year-old woman during an argument.

In New York City, police cleared out the Occupy Wall Street protesters after conditions became so bad at Zucotti Park that it had to be done. (Since Zucotti Park is private property, the First Amendment protections concerning the right to assemble would not apply.) Completely Democrat-run Oakland did the same thing. Philadelphia is considering similar action, but has been trying to talk with the Occupiers rather than having to kick them out.

The Occupy protesters are complaining primarily about a lack of a future, a dearth of good jobs for them as they (supposedly) mature. But in camping out in Dilworth Plaza, they are blocking the start of the $55 million Dilworth Plaza renovation project², which “will create 1,060 jobs and nearly $40 million in wages over the 30-month construction period.” It’s even a “green” project, as well as a hub for the city’s public transportation system, which the protesters should like.

The Inquirer quoted Philadelphia Police Lieutenant Ray Evers, of the Public Affairs unit, who said that conditiona are “deteriorating” at the Occupy site, and that for a second time vandals spray-painted a large area of the wall in the subway concourse. The last time the city had to clean up the protesters’ graffiti, it cost around $20,000 to remove all of the paint. That’s kind of difficult to square with the protesters wanting more taxpayer dollars available to make everyone’s lives better.

It’s getting difficult to see the Occupy protesters as having any real sense of what they actually want or what they think they are doing. They hate capitalism, but want good jobs in the capitalist system, and are protesting because there aren’t enough of them. They want good jobs, but are blocking a construction project which will create good jobs. What they say they want, versus what they actually do, produces a cognitive dissonance.

______________________________
¹ – The Philadelphia Inquirer, Wednesday, 16 November 2011, p. B-1
² – I noted this on Monday as well.

41 Comments

  1. What has the the OWS movement brought us other than death, rapes, drugs, fights, disease, mayhem and had the policing of the cities disrupted which caused crime to go up in other parts of the city. For the Left who is SUPPOSED to be oh sooooooooooo concerned for their fellow citizen, they gave us less than ZERO.

  2. The best smackdown of the 99%ers is Chelsea Clinton skipping all the wrungs on the ladder of success in Network News to start at the TOP at NBC (No Broadcast Challenges for Chelsea). Another 1%er makes it big by virtue of position and money.

  3. And here I thought that they’d bring back Maria Shriver; I hear that’s she’s available again.

    According to The New York Times, Mrs Mezvinsky simply had one of her people contact Steve Capus, president of NBC News, and tell Mr Capus that “she was kicking around what she wanted to do next.” Mr Capus called her in and asked her what she was interested in doing, and, after a long conversation, it was a done deal.

    Of course, Mrs Mezvinsky isn’t the first presidential daughter to get hired by the network news without having to go through the trenches of working her way up from WBRE; Jenna Bush Hager also works for NBC, while Meghan McCain (who didn’t quite make presidential daughter status) has brought her feminine charms — both of them — to msnbc.

  4. From the Santa Cruz Sentinel:

    In addition to problems with human waste, Lane said tents and other structures have taken a toll on the park’s grass. Illegal activities such as alcohol use have continued, officials said.

    Police issued four tickets from Friday to Monday morning to people smoking in the park and having an open flame, police spokesman Zach Friend said. One woman also was arrested for an outstanding warrant.

    Sheriff’s deputy April Skalland said deputies have issued 16 tickets for illegal lodging and arrested seven people around the protest since Oct. 7. The arrests have been for being drunk in public, being under the influence of drugs, and possession of drugs and drug paraphernalia, Skalland said.

    Police said there have been reports of ringworm and scabies at the camp in recent days. County officials did not immediately respond to requests for comment about health conditions at the camp.

    Hat tip to the Gateway Pundit.

    Jim Hoft concluded with a sarcastic, “Yup. They’re just like the tea party.” I guess that’s the Democrats’ meme, but it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny; the TEA Party protests weren’t mired in filth and drugs and rapes and disease, in large part because the TEA Partiers, being more adult and more civilized, picked up after themselves, and went home after their rallies. That’s to be expected: they had actual jobs to go to on Monday morning.

  5. I am delighted with the fact that mayors in some cities are too wussy to make the resident protesters move. The smellier the protesters get, the more crimes they commit, the greater the number of anti-Semitic chants that are aired by the media, the more likely it is that American voters will see just who it is that Nancy Pelosi blessed and Barack Obama attaboyed.

    The protesters are helping the healthcare industry, too. It is healthcare workers who must tend to the victims of bottle attacks and in San Francisco, the hands of cops who were slashed by protesters’ knives. It is medical personnel who have been called upon to test for and treat STDs contracted by the “disenchanted youth.” Hospitals and counselors are being kept employed as they treat and comfort rape victims in camps across the country.

    The morgue industry has, of course, been enhanced as at least one person who lost his life amidst the Oakland protesters–and just think of the trades people who have been hired to replace broken windows and to remove and rebuild the charred ruins of businesses and at least one bank.

    One should not forget the job creation for those who must shovel the human waste and the mountains of trash left by those so praised and ennobled by Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Obama.

    I say, stay, OCW! Show the world–and, especially, America’s voters–your stuff! Make the President and the Speaker proud!

  6. Now those “freinds” of BO and Pelosi are threatening to firebomb Macy’s in NYC, and some whack job fired two shots at the White House in DC with an AK-47. He was arrested today in Indiana, PA (Northwestern PA) People who compared these heathens to the Tea Party have changed their minds now. At least the rabble who’s parents are probably in the 1% can go back home to their basement apartment and be warm.

  7. “Clarification: OCW = Obnoxious Civilization Wreckers!”

    Firstly of all, Gretchen, it is OWS.

    Secondly, it is telling that you and Yorkshire and Editor and others on the r
    Right spend so much energy in mocking those who have bravely taken to the streets in protest, a protest against what? They are against the 1% who are the funders of a corrupt government, in order to syphon the wealth of this nation away from the rest of us, you three too, as I assume that you too are members of the 99%.

    You on the Right are your own worse enemies!

  8. WW sez:
    You on the Right are your own worse(t) enemies!

    Right spend so much energy in mocking those who have bravely taken to the streets in protest, a protest against what? They are against the 1% who are the funders of a corrupt government, in order to syphon the wealth of this nation away from the rest of us, you three too, as I assume that you too are members of the 99%.

    Police say a 29-year-old Occupy Wall Street demonstrator has been arrested on a charge of making a terrorist threat after he was caught on video threatening to attack Macy’s with a Molotov cocktail.
    http://www.nbcnewyork.com

    No WW, we’re the 53% who pay taxes so lazy bums like the protestors can sit on their asses and bitch all day. We’re the 53% that fund the welfare state BO is trying to set up. We’re the 53% who hear terroristic threats from a jerk that wants to FIREBOMB Macy’s tomorrow. We’re the 53% who at first thought this was maybe was a good bunch, but quickly turned into drugs, rapes, deaths, diseases, alcohol, threats to the local merchants, and in the end become your typical anarchists who’s goal in the end has always turned to Marxism. WW, if this is your people, I feel extreme sorrow for you because you look at this drunken rabble as saints, we look at them as people who will shit on anything.

  9. They are protesting, but do they really have any idea what they want to do?

    They sit there, in their corporate-made tents, wearing their corporate-made clothing, playing on their corporate-made laptops or iPhones, supported by parents who are working for private businesses, thinking that it ought to all be torn down. With what would they replace capitalism?

    They are protesting a lack of good jobs, but in Philadelphia they were preventing union workers from starting some good jobs.

    Maybe they think they are the vanguard of the revolution, marching and singing songs and carrying signs and protesting. But real revolutions are conducted by dedicated men of action, men who have real plans . . . and real guns.

    It’s November now, and cold and rainy. If the Occupiers manage to re-establish their campsite in New York City, they’ll find the rain turning to snow soon enough, and the snow to slush, and the slush to jagged, dirty ice overnight.

  10. I heard about the bold revolutionary who wants to firebomb Macy’s, but I have to ask: what kind of logic is that? The wealthy people who own Macy’s will remain wealthy, though perhaps a tad less so, but the everyday workers who are employed by Macy’s, well, they’ll be out of a job if the fire bomber actually accomplished his mission.

  11. Per Wagonwheel writes us in support of the Occupiers, but other than them protesting the top 1% of producers, what do they actually want to do? They don’t really want to abandon our modern industrial society and all of the goods and services it produces. They just don’t like the outcomes of capitalism right now because they are the losers. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 4.4% of all college graduates (BA/BS or higher) are unemployed. That’s less than half of the national unemployment rate.

    When you get down to just 4.4% unemployed in a particular group, maybe it’s time to start asking why they are unemployed? Is it that they don’t present themselves well in interviews, majored in something almost wholly useless, or that we’ve gotten down to the group that’s less desirable employees for some other reason, such as criminal backgrounds, tattoos on their necks or poor attitudes?

    Of course, when they are camped out in unsanitary conditions for two months, we know one thing about them: they weren’t out looking for jobs. It’s kind of difficult to get a good job if you don’t even try.

  12. That is the major conundrum of this movement (we at least know their bowel movements are working since they shit all over the place). These idiots claim to represent the 99%, but their actions only hurt the 99%. It was like the restaurant next to zuchinni park. The 99% work there. But the terroristic actions of these thugs resulted in closing the place down and putting 99%ers out of work and causing damage to the restaurant. Do these thugs have their collective head up their collective asses to shit out????

  13. It is noteworthy how intent the Right is to demonize these “Occupy” demonstrations. They/you do so by choosing anecdotal information, then attempt to paint the entire movement by that brush. It is as if the TEA Party demonstrations should be characterized by the idiots who show up armed to the teeth. Neither characterization is accurate.

    Anecdotally, I participated in an Occupy demonstration at the Rehobeth Beach Bandstand Sunday a week ago. About 200 of us from the young to the elderly showed up with our home made/hand made signs and marched together around the bandstand and gave speeches. We generated a nice article and several photos in The News Journal, the daily newspaper covering our entire state.

    I made a two sided sign on cardboard with the following messages: “Institute Shared Burden” on one side, and “End Government Dysfunction” on the other.

    There have been numerous demonstrations like this in every corner of the country. However, the national media focus on the oddballs, giving a distorted impression of what this movement is all about.

    Even you on the Right must agree that the total tax burden is skewed against the middle and the poor, in favor of the wealthy. Ask Warren Buffet. And you would agree that we have a dysfunctional legislative branch whose approval ratings are in the teens. And I am sure you would agree that we have a government controlled by the funders rather than by the American people. I would expect you to be erecting your tent or at least be marching on the streets in order to rally our nation to adjust our priorities where they should be and to take the necessary actions.

  14. WW wrote:

    It is noteworthy how intent the Right is to demonize these “Occupy” demonstrations. They/you do so by choosing anecdotal information, then attempt to paint the entire movement by that brush.

    Given that this comment follows one in which I used not “anecdotal information,” but documented information by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, your complaint does not seem justified to me. If a documented 4.4% of college graduates are unemployed, and the Occupiers are both unemployed — they’d have to be, to be able to camp out for two months without going to work — and complaining that there are no good jobs for them, I do think it’s reasonable to ask what sets them apart from the 95.6% who are employed.

    There have been numerous demonstrations like this in every corner of the country. However, the national media focus on the oddballs, giving a distorted impression of what this movement is all about.

    Noting, as we have, the outbreaks of scabbies, lice and ringworm in the Occupy camps, and noting how the mayors of our major cities — the vast majority of whom are Democrats — are trying to figure out how to handle what has become a public health and sanitation issue, is hardly a focus on the oddballs. Rather, it’s a wholly foreseeable consequence of a densely populated group living in tents with poor sanitation facilities.

  15. Donald Douglas calls our attention to a piece in The New Yorker by George Packer entitled: The Broken Contract: Inequality and American Decline. This is well worth the read by anyone concerned about the current plight of our culture and politics.

    From this Mr. Douglas chooses to quote the following, with which I can relate due to huge changes in my lifetime, and which well describes a deep concern which I share:

    “As a thought experiment, compare your life today with that of someone like you in 1978. Think of an educated, reasonably comfortable couple perched somewhere within the vast American middle class of that year. And think how much less pleasant their lives are than yours. The man is wearing a brown and gold polyester print shirt with a flared collar and oversize tortoiseshell glasses; she’s got on a high-waisted, V-neck rayon dress and platform clogs. Their morning coffee is Maxwell House filter drip. They drive an AMC Pacer hatchback, with a nonfunctioning air conditioner and a tape deck that keeps eating their eight-tracks. When she wants to make something a little daring for dinner, she puts together a pasta primavera. They type their letters on an IBM Selectric, the new model with the corrective ribbon. There is only antenna television, and the biggest thing on is Laverne and Shirley. Long-distance phone calls cost a dollar a minute on weekends; air travel is prohibitively expensive. The city they live near is no longer a place where they spend much time: trash on the sidewalks, junkies on the corner, vandalized pay phones, half-deserted subway cars covered in graffiti.

    ….

    We can upgrade our iPhones, but we can’t fix our roads and bridges. We invented broadband, but we can’t extend it to 35 percent of the public. We can get 300 television channels on the iPad, but in the past decade 20 newspapers closed down all their foreign bureaus. We have touch-screen voting machines, but last year just 40 percent of registered voters turned out, and our political system is more polarized, more choked with its own bile, than at any time since the Civil War. There is nothing today like the personal destruction of the McCarthy era or the street fights of the 1960s. But in those periods, institutional forces still existed in politics, business, and the media that could hold the center together. It used to be called the establishment, and it no longer exists. Solving fundamental problems with a can-do practicality — the very thing the world used to associate with America, and that redeemed us from our vulgarity and arrogance — now seems beyond our reach.”

    In 1978 I was moving into management in a corporation which just this year is celebrating 100 years of great success. I was making a good salary, we were raising two daughters with my wife a stay at home mom, and we were saving and investing for future college educations and marriages and retirement. Life was good. Transport me at that age to the present, and life would not be nearly as good and the future would look mighty bleak.

    Our inactions and bad decisions, folks, have now come home to roost, and it is not pretty!

    In simple terms, Reagonomics initiated this eventual deterioration, which involved a focus primarily on the bottom line, having no vision for the future and preperation therefor. Our wealth has since shifted to an elite few who now prosper while the rest of us struggle and suffer. We have evolved from a representative democracy into an oligarchy powered by the Right!

    We failed to prepare ourselves to compete globally, so we are left with shifting jobs and wealth overseas, to the further advantage of our wealthy elite who still have the control, and to the disadvantage of the rest of us who have little control. And worse, we have a dysfunctional government, paralyzed by a party whose main goal is to displace an elected President, even though it takes further destruction of our economy to do so.

    It is this that I protest, as do the OWS protesters as well. We represent the 99% who have been sold out by the elitist Right!!!

  16. WW wrote:

    I made a two sided sign on cardboard with the following messages: “Institute Shared Burden” on one side, and “End Government Dysfunction” on the other.

    We are attempting to end government dysfunction, by kicking out the Democrats via the electoral process. And, as you are aware, I support a flat tax system, so I do support “instituting a shared burden.”

    Even you on the Right must agree that the total tax burden is skewed against the middle and the poor, in favor of the wealthy.

    No, I don’t agree with that in the slightest. As you earn more money in this country, your taxes increase, not only on an absolute basis, but on a proportional basis as well. Our tax burden is skewed, but it is skewed in favor of the poor, who pay a much smaller percentage of their income in taxes.

    And you would agree that we have a dysfunctional legislative branch whose approval ratings are in the teens.

    Once the Democrats are relegated to the minority in both Houses of Congress, the government will function better. Remember, it was the 111th Congress, with both Houses having substantial Democratic majorities, which never even tried to pass an FY2011 budget.

    And I am sure you would agree that we have a government controlled by the funders rather than by the American people. I would expect you to be erecting your tent or at least be marching on the streets in order to rally our nation to adjust our priorities where they should be and to take the necessary actions.

    The American people actually get to vote on our representatives, and in total campaign spending, the Democrats and Republicans were fairly close to even in 2010, including spending by outside groups. In the recent special election in the 9th congressional district in New York, the Democrats significantly outspent the Republicans, once they realized that a Republican might win a seat previously held by a Democrat since 1922, and te Democrat still lost.

    But I am trying to “rally our nation to adjust our priorities where they should be and to take the necessary actions,” those necessary actions being to cut government spending and balance our budget.

    The Occupiers have an emotional problem with the results of capitalism and free enterprise, but I certainly don’t: capitalism and free enterprise were the only economic systems to ever raise more than a small percentage of the population above the subsistence level. Yes, the capitalist system is a hard one, in that there are definite losers under capitalism as well as winners, but all of the other systems make losers out of everyone but the the few top people with guns.

  17. There really were some winners in 1978, but the number of losers was high. We were in the depths of the Jimmy Carter “malaise.” While you were moving into management and making a good salary, I was a year out from having been graduated from college, and completely unable to find a job in my field. Now, that could easily have been my fault: perhaps I didn’t present myself well in interviews or somehow flubbed up. But my answer to not being able to find a job in my field was to find a job I could get, and work hard at it. I am successful today because I didn’t whine about not getting a good white collar job in 1978, but was willing to work doing other things.

  18. “If a documented 4.4% of college graduates are unemployed, ….”

    Editor, your 4.4% figure is very misleading. It does not represent the unemployment among the recent college graduates who are having great difficulty finding jobs, nor does it indicate that a large proportion of recent college graduates are way underemployed.

    I also note that you continue to demonize the Occupy movement by focusing on the protest situations in several large cities, when we all know that these demonstrations are occurring across the country, because the concerns are nationwide and Americans are fed up with a slogging economy and a dysfunctional congress, stymied by the obstruction of your own party!

    Wake up, Editor, you are the 99% too, and your daughters are inheriting the results of our dysfunction, to the point where they are enticed to join the military in order to finance their start on their futures. And they are not the only ones. This is one hell of a situation, in my view. A college education should be available to academically qualified individuals at minimal cost to them or their families. This is no pipe dream, because this is the way it was when I was the age of your daughters, and I am the living proof, having graduated from the University of Pennsylvania debt free in 1963.

  19. There is absolutely nothing wrong or unAmerican with a protest rally. “Occupying” is not a rally, it is squatting and is illegal. I would have turned the fire hoses on them when the first tent appeared.

    That noted, Wagonwheel has decided these squatting, filthy, anti-American, anti-capitalists are the “good guys”. I would advise that all of us “traditional” Americans look just below the surface of these so called occupyers. I think if we scratch off the lice and dried fecal matter we’ll see Red.

    Now, turning my attention to the oft repeated and sorry-assed class warfare spouted by Wagonwheel in: “Even you on the Right must agree that the total tax burden is skewed against the middle and the poor, in favor of the wealthy. Ask Warren Buffet.”

    If the “total tax burden” is skewed it is so not because of federal taxes but due to sales, excise, local and state taxes. That’s because a rich man pays the same gasoline tax to run his Bentley as a poor man pays to run his 1992 Cavalier. However, that same rich man pays a hell of a lot more in federal taxes. This is not Wall Streets fault. This is the fault of years of government taxing everything that moves and subsidizing everything that stops moving. Please don’t use a hyppocrite like Buffet, who at any time is free to “write that check” as some sote of paragon of virtue. He’s not. The truely virtuous are those of us who go out and toil daily to bring home the bacon and then are treated to the spectical of dirty hippy kids protesting out efforts. Have you ever considered how many “regular guys” so far have lost work because of the actios of the filthy pigs? Have you considered how much in lost business and damages these pigs have cost small businesses? And yes Wagonwheel, small business owners are just regular guys, not Wall Street.

    Though you piont out that: “And you would agree that we have a dysfunctional legislative branch whose approval ratings are in the teens.” which is your opinion on “dysfunction”. Just because one does not get their way is not evidence of dysfunction. Tho, the approval ratings are in the dumper and will remain so until the Senate has a majority of Tea Party Senators.

    And our “priorities” were just fine until Obama, the Great Uniter, became President and polarized every sector of our people. Until the idea that those of us who believe in the American Dream and our semi-capitalistic system somehow owe a living to those who don’t believe in said system becam the vogue.

  20. What is this? Is “dysfunction” your word of the week? Is everything you don’t agree with some sort of dysfunction?

    BTW, I graduated a decade after you and I too was debt free. Why do you think that is Wagonwheel? Perhaps when the government got into the college loan business and the college subsidizing business the paradgim changed? Oh sure, we had $300 Pell Grants and such but at the root we worked our way through college and while doing so became responsible members of society complete with usable personal skills developed by actually doing something rather than complaining.

    IOW, unlike the occupyers all we asked for was a hand up, not a hand out. And we were willing to work long, hard hours to achieve it. I don’t know about you but the only thing I occupied was a pizza parlor to make pies to pay for school.

  21. WW wrote:

    “If a documented 4.4% of college graduates are unemployed, ….”

    Editor, your 4.4% figure is very misleading. It does not represent the unemployment among the recent college graduates who are having great difficulty finding jobs, nor does it indicate that a large proportion of recent college graduates are way underemployed.

    And, I suppose, it wouldn’t include those recent college graduates who were encamped in Zuccotti Park and not even looking for jobs, right?

    Well, there are a lot of people who either can’t find jobs, or who have jobs but are “underemployed.” For people without a high school diploma, the rate is 13.8%, while for those who finished high school, but went no further, the rate is 9.6%. It’s somewhat difficult to look at the Occupy protesters and see that they somehow have it worse than other sectors of the population.

    Further, the participation rate in the job market is highest among college graduates, 75.8%, higher than any other group; college graduates are doing better at finding jobs than anyone else.

    Of course, those learned college grads are showing their class today:


    Protesters and Officers Clash Near Wall Street


    By MATT FLEGENHEIMER and COLIN MOYNIHAN

    Hundreds of protesters from Zuccotti Park clashed with the police as they tried to reach the New York Stock Exchange Thursday morning, and many were arrested.

    Protesters had vowed to prevent traders from reaching the Stock Exchange on Wall Street and some traders did appear to have a hard time reaching the building. But the Stock Exchange opened for trading as usual at 9:30 a.m.

    Many members of the group pushed through lines formed by police, waving signs and banging drums as they moved. The police started taking protesters into custody who had sat down on the street about a block away from the Stock Exchange.

    So, the Occupy protesters, wildly indignant that they don’t have jobs, thought that the best idea was to prevent people who do have jobs from being able to get to work. The really rich Wall Streeters aren’t the floor traders, but the brokers who call for the trade orders, and the higher level executives, the ones who could miss a day at the office or even telecommute; the Occupiers would have no impact on them at all.

    In other words, the inchoate roar from those claiming to be the “99%” was to try to stop other members of the “99%” from getting to work. Brilliant.

  22. WW wrote:

    Wake up, Editor, you are the 99% too, and your daughters are inheriting the results of our dysfunction, to the point where they are enticed to join the military in order to finance their start on their futures. And they are not the only ones. This is one hell of a situation, in my view. A college education should be available to academically qualified individuals at minimal cost to them or their families. This is no pipe dream, because this is the way it was when I was the age of your daughters, and I am the living proof, having graduated from the University of Pennsylvania debt free in 1963.

    Really? And if “a college education is made available to academically qualified individuals at minimal cost,” then just who does pay those costs? Why, the answer is simple: the taxpayers, right? And that means you would be taxing the parents of as well as the young high school graduates who were not either academically qualified or very interested, to pay for the college educations of other people, people who would one day earn much more money, and probably wind up as the bosses of the people you would tax more to pay for their college educations.

    A very basic lesson in life: nothing is free. If one person doesn’t have to pay for a good, service or benefit he receives, then someone else has to pay for it. When you say that a college education ought to be be either free or at a very minimal cost, you have to consider the other side of it: who is going to have to pay for it?

    Oh, and by the way, while the educational benefits my daughters receive from joining the Army are considerable, you really don’t know much about their motivations; there were several other factors involved.

  23. I find it amusing Editor, that these socialists actually believe that this or that should be free or at “minimum cost” except for whatever good or service they produce. Then suddenly, they want to be well paid for their efforts.

  24. Hoagie, you know that there are two items the costs of which have escalated much faster than the cost of living. Both of these items have a major impact on our families: one is health care, the other is the cost of a college education. The future of our country depends on controlling both of these costs. If we don’t, must I spell out the impact on our country?

    On the cost of college education, I suggest you read the executive summary of this.

    For health care costs, as we discussed on CSPT many times, Americans pay almost double of that which the next most costly country pays.

    We need to fix these high cost of these two necessities!

  25. First off wagonwheel, a college education is NOT a necessity. A college education is a requirement for some professions most of which are not suitable for most people. A college education is an option for other people many of whom never apply that education to their ultimate career. And a college education could be a nice thing for people who just want to improve their knowlege, but it is in no way a necessity.

    As I tried to make clear earlier, when the government starts fooling around with something, it’s cost goes up disproportionately. It has in college costs and it has and will continue in health care as long as the government is involved. Has the price of computers, cell phones, televisions and other consumer goods gone up like healthcare and education? NO! That’s because at least up till now government has very limited interest in those things. Has the price of heating oil and gasoline gone up crazy? YES! That’s because the damn government keeps trying to control those industries. As long as the producers and consumers are free to negotiate their agreed upon price without undue (note, I said undue) interference from government, prices will remain as low as the market demands.

  26. OWS owns him now. I heard the Feds want to Charge this OWS’r that shot at the White House with attempted assination of the President. Way to go Lefties!

    Occupy San Diego Holds Moment of Silence For White House Shooter

    More infiltrators!
    by John Hayward
    11/17/2011

    Hey, remember that random nut who “blended” into the Occupy DC protest, in order to line up a shot at the White House windows with his AK-47? His name is Oscar Ramiro Ortega. As with the other 250+ crimes committed at Occupy camps, his actions were “isolated” and say absolutely nothing about the noble movement he “infiltrated.”

    Except that Occupy San Diego held a moment of silence in “solidarity” with Ortega yesterday. You will hear no objections raised to the idea in the video below. You will hear a bonus “Occupy the police department!” shout at the end.

    More Here:

    http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=47593

  27. Hoagie, you’ll need to explain to me how the government is responsible for the increasing costs in private institutions. As a matter of fact, many of the public institutions are significantly cheaper.

    And on the need for a college education, statistics show that the lifetime earnings of college educated individuals are significantly above those without. Of course there are some exceptions, but statistically they don’t count much.

    We will simply not be able to effectively compete if the costs of a college education escalates as fast as they have been.

    Regarding the impact of government on prices, we need to debate your points by seeking applicable data, which I don’t have the time to do at the moment. My sense is that you are exaggerating.

  28. One other thing Wagonwheel. Don’t give me that “cost of living” crap. We all know the stated C of L excludes amost as many items as it includes now adays. And it deliberately excludes the most variable items. It may be just a coincidence but the items the C of L exclude are those with the most direct influence by government. You know, like energy costs? Once the government began gameing the statistics then any truth became actual truth. Therefore, we can’t even see the real truth, but our wallets can feel it. Can’t yours?

    BTW, do you feel you are getting a good deal from your tax money? Would you spend it the way and on the things the government does? You know, like Solyndra or a 12 mil. bonus for the head of Freddy? Or do you feel you are better off negotiating the price of your new car yourself? Or your cell phone package? Or comparing computers without the help of Big Brother to decide which you want? Inquiring minds want to know.

    You do realize the government pisses away more money in one hour than you’ve earned all your life, don’t you? So your answer is “giv’em more”. Smart.

  29. Where is the outrage on the Left after the San Diego occupiers held their “moment of silence in solidarity” with the man who has been charged with attempting to assassinate the POTUS? Are those who have openly praised and supported the so-called protesters been silenced by their own fear of what can best be characterized as mobs?

    Why has there been no outcry after documented anti-Semitic rants have been spewed from the mouths of those so many Democrats have tried to desperately to compare with the Tea Party?

    http://frontpagemag.com/2011/10/26/the-anti-semites-of-occupy-wall-street/

    These OWS anarchists are the folks Speaker Pelosi implored God to bless and which President Obama endorsed and which Democratic candidate for the US Senate in Massachusetts (and former Obama Administration official) Elizabeth Warren claims to have “created the intellectual foundation for what they (the Occupiers) are doing.”

    Last night was the night folks put out their garbage in my neighborhood. I would have respected those who celebrated THAT garbage more than I respect those who are celebrating the riotous garbage that comprises the Occupation Movement.

  30. Something that should give even WW pause. If he read The Philadelphia Inquirer this morning, he’d know that Joe Paterno, as a tenured professor at Penn State, will be receiving more than $500,000 a year in retirement pay. Ousted University President Graham Spanier, also a tenured professor, is eligible for something around $183,000 a year, in retirement pay. Jerry Sandusky, who retired in 1999, got a six-figure lump sun retirement package, and still receives $60,000 a year from Penn State in retirement pay. If the scandal had not arisen, causing reporters to dig, we’d have never known about this; it would have been perfectly normal for retiring tenured professors to receive an annual pension equal to the average of their last three years’ salaries.

    Forget Coach Paterno; he’s a special case. How is it that Dr Spanier will be receiving, in an annual pension, more than the Governor of Pennsylvania is paid in salary while he holds office? How is it that tenured professors, after the requisite years of service, can be paid in pension the average of what they earned annually for the last three years? When a long-time Penn State professor retires, and his position has to be filled, Penn State is, in effect, not only paying the new holder of the position to teach, but the retired holder of the position as well, paying two people to do the work of one.

    A reasonable pension system is fine; it helps keep retired people from being wholly dependent upon Social Security. But I doubt many Pennsylvanians would find this particular pension system reasonable.

  31. WW wrote:

    And on the need for a college education, statistics show that the lifetime earnings of college educated individuals are significantly above those without. Of course there are some exceptions, but statistically they don’t count much.

    We will simply not be able to effectively compete if the costs of a college education escalates as fast as they have been.

    Yet, somehow, even with the cost structure the way it is, we have been producing a surplus of college graduates; we are, after all, discussing this on a thread about the protesters complaining that, as college grads, there aren’t enough jobs that they are willing to do good jobs for them.

  32. Paterno makes a total of $1,022,794. President Graham Spanier makes $813,855. What do these numbers tell us, aside from the fact that Paterno is probably underpaid by the cock-eyed standards of big-time college football? They point to the power dynamic at Penn State. And let’s not kid anyone—that dynamic is a big reason it took so long for the Sandusky horrors to surface.

    http://deadspin.com/5857629/joe-paternos-annual-compensation-is-200000-higher-than-the-psu-presidents-and-other-grotesqueries

  33. Ya know, just seeing the retirement numbers posted by the Editor, coupled with the salaries of these clucks posted by Yorkshire it’s hard to believe this is astate funded college we’re talking about. Football, schmootball these numbers are rediculous. Waddaya wanna bet they’re all registered Democrats? But I guess that gives’em a pass on greed.

  34. Hoagie, you’ll need to explain to me how the government is responsible for the increasing costs in private institutions. As a matter of fact, many of the public institutions are significantly cheaper.

    And on the need for a college education, statistics show that the lifetime earnings of college educated individuals are significantly above those without. Of course there are some exceptions, but statistically they don’t count much.

    We will simply not be able to effectively compete if the costs of a college education escalates as fast as they have been.

    Regarding the impact of government on prices, we need to debate your points by seeking applicable data, which I don’t have the time to do at the moment. My sense is that you are exaggerating.

  35. Now this is getting to be stupid. The Philadelphia occupiers were moving away from Dilworth Plaza, to Thomas Paine Plaza, across the street, but the Philadelphia Police stopped them because they had no permit, pushing them right back to Dilworth, where they are stopping a major construction project.

    I happen to think that the occupiers are idiots, but, idiots or not, they do have the right to speak out and assemble to protest. The city is trying to make it hard on them, pushing them over to Rittenhouse Square, a few blocks away from City Hall, where they can be more easily ignored.

    By agreeing to move, they have agreed to stop blocking the Dilworth Plaza renovation. But the city is being stupid on this one.

  36. Yorkshire, you are badly misinformed by those media elements whose agenda is focused on defeating President Obama and the Dems, therefore are willing to tell lies and distortions to accomplish their ends. And you have joined them with their propaganda.

    Look, I will be the first to admit that there are oddballs and freaks out there in these demonstrations, but to attempt to make their behavior a characteristic of the entire movement is false, based on my reads and my own involvement.

    Please be specific about the welfare system that you claim President Obama is trying to set up.

    Please be specific about the movement having “turned to Marxism”.

    Yorkshire, the movement is growing rapidly. If you continue to demonize it and misdirect its purposes, you lose.

    These people are protesting the shortage of jobs, the continuing flow of wealth upwards, the dysfunction in our government, and a government controlled by wealthy funders.

    Now which of these issues do you think are off-base?

  37. Just like others on the Right, you have chosen to demonize this movement by choosing anecdotal information to prove your point. I find this approach biased and unimpressive, not what I would expect from an otherwise impressive and thinking woman.

    This is a growing movement for a cause, that being to save our country from our movement toward oligarchy and more dysfunction and less shared burden. You know as well as I do that wealthy people are in control of our Congress. You know as well as I do that the wealthy continue to get a larger piece of the pie, while in the meantime the middle and poor are losing ground. How long do you think we can continue in this direction, Gretchen, and continue in a sustainable fashion?

    This growing movement should suggest to you the answer to that question.

    This currently chaotic movement should come as no surprise to any American willing to pay attention and consider what is happening to our country.

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